Sunday, June 26, 2016

This is Budapest calling, Take 2

I always stay up all night on UK election nights (unless I really, really have to be somewhere at the crack of dawn), but I think I may have broken my own personal record on Thursday/Friday by staying awake until almost 9am.  It's amazingly difficult to drag yourself away from the TV screen when you can't quite believe what you're looking at.  I then managed to get four hours' sleep before I received another phone call from Canadian TV asking me to go on for a second time.  Just by chance I still had the iPad I borrowed the previous night, so luckily I was able to do it, and this time I made a point of mentioning my Hungarian friend Anita (who I told you about the other night) and her reaction to the referendum result.  Well, perhaps it would be more accurate to say I put her reaction into my own words, because what she actually said in her early morning email was "WHAT THE **** BRITAIN!!!!!"

It turns out that Anita had managed to complete our 'interview' just before polling day (I sent her the remaining questions by email), but hadn't had the chance to send the voice-file back.  So here it is belatedly, and by the time you get to the end I'm sure you'll be able to imagine exactly how she's feeling now.

Me : You were about fourteen years old when Hungary joined the European Union in 2004. Do you have any memories of that period?

Anita : Yeah, I have loads of them. The first thing we all thought was that we would have the euro, you know, join the eurozone. That didn't happen! But I knew that there were all these new possibilities, that we could move, that we could travel, and you wouldn't need a passport. You could just go anywhere and see the world. I'd never been abroad before, so it was something that I really wanted to do. And everyone wanted to do that.

Me : Did you notice any changes in Hungary in the first few years after it joined the European Union?

Anita : Well yes, I have.  Prices started to go up, and people started to leave - at least, there was the possibility for people to leave, and many started to use that chance, or live with that chance, you know?  For me, when we joined the EU, I was fourteen, and at around that time I started to think about, you know, not spending my life in Hungary - the rest of my life, my whole life in the one place.  I realised I could go elsewhere, I could live elsewhere, I could visit places.  I remember there was a trip planned to go abroad, I think it was Austria - this was pre-2004, and we would have to have passports to go on this trip.  I think it was like a hiking thing...I can't remember, actually.   But the point is we didn't have passports, so we didn't go, and later on with the EU coming in, or us joining the EU, we didn't need it anymore, so you could just go.  In Hungary we have these ID cards, so you have your name on it, age, date of birth, whatever, your nationality, a hologram in your picture, so it's like a valid proof of ID.  Like in Britain you have your passport, and licence for driving...in Hungary we have these ID cards, and that was enough.   With that you could cross borders.  So you get that ID card when you're fourteen.  No matter what, you get that, and with that you have the opportunity to do stuff you couldn't before.  So that was one big change.

I mean, there were other things, like people moaning about prices going up, and they did - to be fair, they did.  Because obviously we joined the EU, and I don't know if there's this thing that you have to match your prices, or it's because of importing, or whatever the reason was.  Prices did go up, and one silly example is the Hungarian equivalent of pound shops.  In Britain you have the pound shops, you go in and you buy anything for a pound.  We had the same in Hungary, they were called the Hungarian hundred forint shops.  Right, so you went in, and you spent one hundred forints on any one item, and that was it.  Now, the equivalent of that would be about thirty pence, so we have hundred forint shops.  And after the EU...well, not immediately after, but shortly after, they went up to become the euro shops, with the one euro, which is the equivalent of over three hundred forints, right?  Whereas previously you would spend one hundred forints, you'd spend three hundred.  So, it's a silly example, but I think it proves the point.

There were good and bad changes.  Obviously people would moan about prices going up, but I think the good overwhelmingly overtook the bad.  I mean, it's not just the everyday examples of "oh, you could actually go abroad", like some people take it so for granted - you know, "we've been to Tenerife, we've been to Gran Canaria, and we're going to Switzerland" or whatever,  Yeah, that's British holidays, going to Tenerife.  For Hungarians, the holiday is going to Balaton, maybe, which is the local...like in the country.  There's huge, huge social differences in that regard.  But yeah, once you had the European Union, you could just go.  And in fact that's what I did.  Not for a few more years after, but I did it nonetheless, and I don't think I would have if it wasn't for the EU.

Me : What does the EU mean to the average person in Hungary?  Is there a fonder attitude to the EU than there is in the UK?

Anita : I think...hmmm, I think it's quite divided, to be honest.  I don't know any person in my generation who has anything against the EU.  Not those that I know, at least, or not those that I speak to, right?  I mean, it gives us opportunities, it gives us a chance to go and broaden our horizons.  Several of my peers have gone abroad to look for jobs and to study, just like me.  I came to Britain after graduating from high school, and went to university here, and worked, and without the EU I wouldn't have been able to do it.  I would have stayed in Hungary and possibly would have ended up doing some menial job in a factory.  Instead I feel like I'm actually achieving something...well, most of the days.  I actually feel like I've made steps to live up to my potential, which I highly doubt I would have been able to do if I stayed in the one place - be it Hungary, be it whatever, you know, I think people need to see the world.  I think people need to experience different cultures and different ways of living.  It's my preference that I stayed, but I know people who go abroad, and then stay for a week, stay for a year, and then go back, but I think the opportunity itself, that you can do that, just means a lot.  So I don't actually know anyone of my generation who sees anything bad about the EU.  Not in terms of economic possibilities, not in terms of intellectual benefits, you know?  As for the older generations, I think there might be some people who are not so fond of it, but in general...I don't know, that's the answer!  I've not lived in Hungary for some years, so this is a tough one to answer.

Me : Apart from making it possible for you to live and work here, what practical benefits have you enjoyed from EU membership since you moved to Scotland?

Anita : It's not just living and working here as such, it's also me going abroad, visiting Iceland, visiting Norway, going back to Hungary via Slovakia without any issues in terms of passports and whatnot being required, I mean all these things.  It's not just Britain as such, it's all the other countries in the EU that I had a chance to interact with. OK, it's not as many as some other people have visited, but still you feel it, and it does make a difference, and knowing that I have the chance to visit more also.  Other than visiting countries, and going on holiday or whatever, there's also...for example, when I was at university I had classmates from different EU countries, and just the possibility to exchange experiences, and knowledge, and interact with them, to find out more about their culture and ways of living, and their viewpoints, you know?  It just broadens your mind, it just gives you...I don't know, it just makes you more aware of things.  You find out about their history, their viewpoints.  And also, being part of the EU, I felt like a part of a community, and a practical benefit...of course, it's important to have a European health insurance card, but it's not just about the practical benefits.  It's also about, as I said, intellectual and other benefits as well.

Me : How did you feel when you first heard there was going to be a referendum on leaving the EU, and in particular that you as an EU citizen wouldn't be able to vote?

Anita : Well, my thought was **** this ****, I cannot believe people are this stupid that they would even call the referendum.  I mean, OK, I can understand it's a democratic thing to do, isn't it?  Holding referendums on things that are important to people, fair enough, do it.  But I mean, personally, myself, I cannot see the problems with the EU for Britain.  I know there are things that Britain maybe could do better independently, maybe, I'm not sure, but I cannot fathom how the benefits of the EU would be less, you know, than the benefits of an independent UK.  I just can't see that happening.  So when I first heard there was going to be a referendum, I was like, "for real?"  OK, well fair enough, if there's going to be a referendum, fine, just give people the chance to vote if they so want it.  But I honestly did not think that it would come to this, in terms of the media coverage, in terms of the scaremongering, in terms of all this stupid rhetoric that people have put on, you know?  Project Fear - what the hell, honestly?  And as for not being able to vote, again : **** this ****.  Honestly, I'm an EU citizen, as you have noticed, I have been here for seven years...coming up in August it's going to be seven years.  I have worked my ass off, paid all my taxes and National Insurance and everything you need.  I'm a good, honest citizen, you don't get any trouble, you know like problem with the police.  Never even used a GP.  I've only ever seen the nurse once, so you can't say I'm like a drain on your system.  I don't get benefits, I don't get anything that all the scaremongering people are talking about in the media.  So personally, I feel quite excluded, I feel like I'm not actually a valid member of this country.  You know, like my voice doesn't count.  I've been here for seven years and I don't get to vote on one of the most crucial questions of my lifetime, in terms of whether Britain should stay or go, or leave the EU.  Because that will have, I assume, quite strong effects on my life, on my future, and still I don't get to have a say.  People from Commonwealth countries who live here do get to have a say.  Just please try to explain to me why someone from India has more of a say in this question than I do!  How is it going to affect their life more, and therefore how do they get a vote, as opposed to me?  How?  Again : **** this ****.

Me : Do you think it's fair that citizens of Commonwealth countries like Canada, India, Swaziland and Barbados have a vote in this referendum, but citizens of other EU countries don't?  If not, why not?

Anita : Well, I think I've just answered that question!  No, I do not think it's fair, I think it's a ****** system, I think it's ridiculous, and I think it's set up in a way that actually encourages EU bashing in a way, and you know, all this scaremongering that "oh, you bloody EU people come here and steal our jobs", well **** you, you can go and work in Hungary if you want.  You know?  Nobody's telling you not to.  And if you don't want to, you can stay here and get a job.  All my jobs since I've lived here, all these seven years, ALL of them, were underpaid, undervalued, and jobs that an ordinary person if you asked them on the street would not quite happily take on!  You know?  And I did.  So you're welcome.

Me : As a matter of principle, do you think the free movement of people across the continent is preferable to a points-based immigration system that gives priority to people with particular skills, regardless of where in the world they come from?

Anita : To be honest, I don't know.  I know Canada has the points-based system.  I don't actually know which other countries do...oh, and maybe Australia.  I'm not sure, I think they do.  Anyway, I can understand, you know, points-based system, OK, if you're well-educated, and well-off and whatnot, and you get a preference,  I can understand in terms of the country looking after itself, and saying, you know what, we only want the best, we don't want the scum of the world.  But I mean, isn't that a bit selfish?  That you're just taking in the best people, so to speak, the best...whatever that means.  Where's equality of opportunity?  Hmmm?  Where's that in the points-based system?  Nowhere.  It presupposes that you can make yourself well-off or well-educated in your own country.  That you can be good enough for Canada if you study in the best university in your own country, and then you can go and live in Canada, because you've already trained.  Well, not every country has the best education system, so you're already excluding those who don't have the opportunity to study at home.  And you're not giving them the chance.  I don't know.  Personally, I don't think it's fair, because as I said, equality of opportunity does not exist in a points-based system.  I can understand from the country's perspective that it's for their own benefit, only taking in the best, but that's a very exclusive system.

Me : What do you think the consequences will be for you and other EU citizens in the UK if there is a Leave vote?  Are you reassured by Michael Gove's assertion that the rights of people who are already here will be unaffected?

Anita : No, I'm not reassured by that.  At all.  He cannot promise it.  I'm not a legal expert, or an EU legal expert, or lawyer, or whatever, but I know that the rights given by the EU will not be unaffected, because the UK will not be part of the EU anymore if they leave, will they?  So they will have to come up with new laws and new regulations, and policies and all.  They cannot promise that the law will remain the same.  One of the main points of the Leave campaign is that they will no longer have to abide by EU regulations, so obviously that applies especially to immigration.  So nope, I'm not reassured at all.  Especially since one of the biggest things they always chant is "oh, bloody EU people coming in and stealing the jobs".  Well, if they vote to leave, isn't that one of the pulling-powers?  The Leave campaign saying they can regulate all of the people coming in, so that they will not steal the jobs?  No.  The consequences will be a big ****-up, and uncertainty.  Which is not very nice, is it?

Me : On a scale of 1 to 10, how relieved will you be if Britain votes to remain in the EU?

Anita : Er...100.

Me : Finally, a question about Hungarian politics.  The Prime Minister, Mr Orban, is one of the most controversial heads of government in Europe.  On the face of it, his stated desire to replace liberal democracy with an "illiberal state" seems to run counter to the EU's values.  Why do you think his ideology has resonated so much with the Hungarian electorate?

Anita : Well, he is...oh God.  Honestly, that man.  Right, let's focus on the question, before I go off on a rant.  It's because Hungary is quite old-headed, I think, in the way that they always want to be able to do their own thing.  I mean we've had the Turks, we've had the Habsburgs, we've had the Russians, we've had our share of people coming in and telling us what to do.  And the EU sometimes feels like that as well.  So I think when people say "we don't want to be ruled by all these things", that's what they are thinking of, all these past hurts.  I don't know, that's the only reason I can think of, to be honest.  But I mean, as I said I've not been in Hungary for the past seven years.  But yeah, he is quite controversial, in that he is going after what he wants, and not giving a **** how it comes across, to be honest.

118 comments:

  1. Imagine how she feels right now...
    James, it would be brilliant if you could let her speak for herself and give her a place to voice her opinion.

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    1. Agreed. It is utterly ludicrous that a person like that should be threatened by a cretin like Nigel Farage. She talked more sense in an interview with James than almost all of the TV debate shows.

      I am completely sick of the fools that run the UK.

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    2. "I am completely sick of the fools that run the UK."

      This.

      Complete and utter Chaos.

      This is quantatively different from the usual blundering comical incompetence we've come to expect from Labour, the tories and the lib dems.

      This is a yawning fu**ing chasm of breathtaking complacency and almost criminal negligence. A soul-sucking vacuum of career obsessed fools dashing around like headless chickens on a busy motorway. Not forgetting those cowards who have just f**ked off and abdicated responsibility completely.

      As Marcia points out, this is the worst possible time for these westminster bubble cretins to run away or put their own careers ahead of everything else.

      They need to get to a studio, find a microphone and STOP the hatred and racism getting out of hand as quickly as possible. The extreme far-right and the most lunatic wings of the kippers and the tories are stirring up racial and anti-foreigner hatred like it's a pleasant Sunday pastime and the complete black hole of leadership from westminster is allowing them to.

      No wonder ordinary voters in England and Wales just treated the westminster bubble establishment with such utter contempt as this jawdropping spectacle just confirms every single negative view they ever had.

      People kind of understood the MPs expenses scandal. Despised it, but grasped it real quick. "Yeah they're greedy bastards out for themselves".

      This kind of chaos though.. it defies rational explanation.

      Chaos is the one thing that voters cannot abide. They will put up with base greed and incompetence for a time and even laugh at it, but chaos they will not stand for.

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    3. What is the source of that interesting snip?

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    4. What snip? Are you looking for quotes on the MPs expenses scandal? There is an embarrassment of riches (literally) if you are.

      Delete
  2. There must be about fifty or more EU citizens at my place of work.
    If they had to go back to their own countries the company I work for would not be able to function.
    And that is repeated at similar workplaces the length and breadth of the UK

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  3. I stayed up all night watching the results and ended up with electoral jet lag. Disturbing news of the intimidation attacks on EU citizens from south of the border.

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  4. What would happen is the companies that pay peanuts to its workers, using Eastern European nationals to suppress wages would have to offer a decent wage to its employees . When the business community say the EU is good for them, they mean they can get away with paying minimum wage. It is not the duty of Britain to help the flow of cheap labour into the country but to take care of its own people first and foremost

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  5. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 11:47 AM

    I worked with a Hungarian guy who got over the fence when the great socialist Soviet Union sent in the tanks. I think he would prefer to remain in Scotland.

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    Replies
    1. That's not what you voted for...

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  6. Wings Scotlandsson ‏@WingsScotland · 7 minutes ago

    The Scottish Labour MP resigns en masse.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Sparklemonkey ‏@Sparkle__Monkey ·15 minutes ago

    This episode of The Thick Of It is quite remarkable.....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If the scriptwriters had tried to propose such an episode, they'd have been laughed off the set.
      Alex Birnie

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  8. The UK is officially an international laughing stock.

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    Replies
    1. Boris Trump and his schoolboy japesJune 26, 2016 at 2:04 PM

      Nah! That must be an overstateme..


      Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam . 2 hours ago

      Conservative Leave MP, Boris backer: "there is no plan. Leave campaign don't have a post Brexit plan, Number 10 should have had one"


      Oh right!! Boris Trump to the rescue.

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    2. Officially?

      Delete
  9. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 4:51 PM

    Just wondering if any of you Nat sis realised that the EU referendum was a UK wide referendum. Just trying to ascertain how thick you lot are.
    And did you know that the Nat sis campaigned to get out of the Common Market which we were dragged into by the Tories 1973. Those Tories you Nat sis pretend to hate.

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    Replies
    1. Edith Snellgrove-WhitmanJune 26, 2016 at 5:40 PM

      That ladies and gents is the wit and wisdom of Mr Kinnear.

      Delete
    2. Tory Racist Class 2June 26, 2016 at 5:52 PM

      Channel 4 NewsVerified account ‏@Channel4News

      Scenes of anger and hatred on Britain's streets after Brexit.

      Police are investigating multiple hate crime reports.

      Delete
  10. So, Sturgeon has approached EU officials and been rebuffed. I can't say I'm surprised. She has no international standing. Now she has changed her tune and is saying she will veto brexit. But that's impossible - she is outranked by both UK Parliament and, above that, the privy council.

    She is making a complete fool of herself and of Scotland.

    But at least we now have some clarity - Scotland has to leave the EU along with the rest of Britain, then achieve independence, and then apply to rejoin as a new member state. This means any yes vote would be a leap in the dark - with neither terms of membership nor EU membership itself guaranteed.

    I think Scottish independence died on Friday morning. The dynamic has been completely and irrevocably changed.

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    1. Annas Alamudi ‏@sorslibertas · 8 minutes ago

      Scotland welcome to join EU, Merkel ally says http://reut.rs/28WFf3m via @Reuters

      Dildo

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    2. You shouldn't dismiss Aldo so easily. He has an enviable track record of predictions: "The UK will vote to stay in the EU and that will be the end of it. No referenda + no elections of note, for 4 years."

      Delete
    3. Anon, an irrelevant point.

      Scott, Scotland may well be welcome in the EU, but we have to go through a process first - leave / secede / re apply / meet criteria. That process is not an easy one and if you can't offer the Scottish people any guarantees regarding the EU then they are hardly likely to vote to break away from the UK.

      This is really simple stuff. The fact you guys choose to engage in the ad hominem when presented with it just goes to demonstrate your own insecurities.

      Cheerio for now. I'll pop in later in the week, if I can be arsed.

      Delete
    4. "That process is not an easy one and if you can't offer the Scottish people any guarantees regarding the EU."

      "Martin MacDonald ‏@Innealadair · 6 hours ago

      The strangest thing at the moment is the absolute silence in WM. No PM on the TV, no Chancellor on TV, no Labour party leader on TV. Nothing


      Ben Coates ‏@bencoates1 · 6 hours ago

      Quote of the day, from Brexiter Iain Duncan Smith: "Our promises were a series of possibilities"

      Ross Colquhoun ‏@rosscolquhoun · 5 hours ago

      There's a reason why @RuthDavidsonMSP is saying very little at a time that demands leadership.

      Alex Rowley ‏@Alex_RowleyMSP · 5 hours ago

      Disappointing that at a time when we need unity, focus & strength @IanMurrayMP and fellow plotters put self interest before needs of country



      This really is simple stuff.

      Delete
    5. It's rather early to say we can't offer guarantees. The result was two days ago, and that's still being worked on. However, one we certainly can offer at this stage is that staying in the UK means leaving the EU.

      As to ad hominems: two months back, you stated with surety that Britain would vote Remain, and this would kill independence. Now that Britain has voted Leave, you say it will kill independence. I merely suggest that it might be wise to apply some salt to the grand predictions you constantly insist on making.

      Delete
  11. Aldo and GWC--Stop flapping, your insecurity is showing.

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    1. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 6:25 PM

      Your arrogance and fascist non democratic tendency is showing. Wee knickerless is growing pubic hair on her upper lip reminisent of 1933.

      Delete
    2. Tory Racist Class 2June 26, 2016 at 6:36 PM

      Jacek Saryusz-Wolski ‏@JSaryuszWolski · Jun 25

      Thank you Scotland !
      For being home to Polish soldiers during WW2 and Poles now.
      Welcome in EU !
      @NicolaSturgeon

      Delete
  12. The two non-responses I have received so far just demonstrate the validity of my point.

    How can you expect the Scottish people to vote for independence when they have no guarantees of anything that will follow? We don't qualify for EU membership under current rules. If they did let us in,what price would we have to pay? We are a small country with no bargaining power. We'd need to completely submit ourselves to the mercy of the euro and of Germany. Think of Greece.

    The Scottish people voted for British EU mmembership to continue, with British terms. They did not vote to be a vassal state of Germany.

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    1. David Hallidaysson ‏@DavidJFHalliday · 7 minutes ago

      Leave should have had a plan for victory. Perhaps something like screaming "We won! You lost! Shut up! Get over it! Move on! Teacakes vile!"

      Delete
    2. Michael Crick ‏@MichaelLCrick · Jun 25

      Is George Osborne still Chancellor? Does he still exist? Did he ever exist? Or did I imagine him? Has anyone spotted him since Brexit vote?

      Delete
    3. Uncertainty!!!! SHRIEK!! SNP must answerJune 26, 2016 at 6:01 PM

      Jim WatersonVerified account  ‏@jimwaterson · 2h2 hours ago

      Please enjoy our "can you find George Osborne?" game. https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/can-you-find-george-osborne …

      Delete
    4. The UK just did Aldo, or have you not noticed?

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    5. It's rather early to say we can't offer guarantees. The result was two days ago, and that's still being worked on. However, one we certainly can offer at this stage is that staying in the UK means leaving the EU.

      As to ad hominems: two months back, you stated with surety that Britain would vote Remain, and this would kill independence. Now that Britain has voted Leave, you say it will kill independence. I merely suggest that it might be wise to apply some salt to the grand predictions you constantly insist on making.

      Delete
    6. Aldo, I asked you to come with us on Friday. Join us.

      I am waiting to see what is being offered - if anything. Unfortunately the Daily Mail printing made up crap is one of the reasons we are in this situation. So their story of rebuff should be disregarded at this stage. And since the MOT is utterly discredited in Scotland I would not take any notice of what any of the HawHaws there misreport.

      Reading several European sources I have found the Dutch Foreign minister saying Scotland would be looked at after the divorce. I found the leader of the SPD in Germany OK with Scotland joining, and of course the link above - although I didn't read it in Reuters. Curiously, Scotland does not seem to be on everyone's radar this weekend in Europe.

      Europe - despite the crap you have read in the Fail and the Express - is not greater Germany. Sure they have clout. They are the ones with the money. But they are 16% of the population - not 85%. But I too care greatly what they think. I note that Ms Merkel is staying quiet and conciliatory herself. Perhaps she is wise enough to wait and see if for instance, Parliament ignores the vote. I know 2 people who voted leave because they were sure stay was going to win, and thought it would be fun to kick the establishment. I explained to several leavers before the vote, that which they are just learning. All they got was the club rules and dues but they burnt their management seat. Fucking idiots all.

      We will not know for several days what any of the implications of this stupid Brexit vote are. And we don't know what deal -if any - is on offer to Scotland. Nicola knows this. She is not rushing headlong into anything. Her career is on the line just as much as pretty much every political leader in the UK at the moment.

      Now I would suggest you keep your council too. Do not snipe or gloat. You appear to be centre right, but not a moron - unlike some trolls here. In a week or 2 you can save face and join with us. To do what is best for Scotland. But if all you are is a destructive trolling shill, perhaps you would be better actually going somewhere else.

      Delete
    7. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 6:33 PM

      What you Nat sis want is total dominance and anything that is irreversible. Your Nat si thugs will make the Stasi look like a garden party. I hope the English have the common sense to put genuine border controls in force and keep you scum IN.

      Delete
    8. Tory Racist Class 2June 26, 2016 at 7:03 PM

      Adam BoultonVerified account ‏@adamboultonSKY

      This weekend I and my family have witnessed 3 "when are you going home?" Racist incidents aimed at EU citizens here.

      Delete
    9. The agent provocateur does not consider himself Scottish. Thus, the reference to "keep you scum in".

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    10. He's not Scottish. We've known that for months. Don't know why we have to keep repeating it for those who somehow can't spot the obvious.

      Delete
  13. Alastair Campbell on Sky News just now basically saying if only we had Tony Blair in charge right now. Mere days before Chilcott.

    Truly, we have crossed the realm from jawdropping satire into black comedy.

    I can't remember a day like this in politics.

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    Replies
    1. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 6:46 PM

      Tony Blair is probably the greatest PM since Churchill. He recognised the rise in Clerical Islamic Fascism like Churchill did with the Nazis. You joke Nat sis live in a parallel universe outwith the human race. Bunch of non wankers.

      Delete
    2. Shhh... The adults are talking.

      Delete
    3. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 7:08 PM

      Typical Nat si response no substance and lack of facts. Try being an adult.

      Delete
    4. Time to ask your mummy for a glass of warm milk and your Britain First jamjams. Sleepy time for you.

      Delete
    5. Tory Racist Class 2June 26, 2016 at 7:16 PM

      Paul Beard ‏@tangowhisky26 · 45 minutes ago

      Less than two weeks ago MP's of all parties stood united in wake of death of Jo Cox. Now look at them - acting like spoilt, ignorant, brats

      Delete
    6. Me neither. Of course we have the slightly crazy
      Glasgow Working Class 2 to keep us amused.

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    7. Given his worship of the war criminal, I'm looking forward to hammering that buffoon with the contents of the Chilcot report...

      Delete
    8. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 8:55 PM

      Blair will be exonerated and rightly so. He fought the good fight against Islamic nutters. Blair is good Christian man and should be honoured for his fight for liberty.

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    9. Blair is a war criminal and I'm looking forward to hammering you with the Chilcot report.

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    10. Hilary Benn and his Blairite vermin trying to oust Corbyn before the Chilcot report is debated in Parliament. They know Corbyn will have the right of reply and they know he will expose Blair and that other reptile Straw for what they are.

      Delete
    11. Anon, that is surely proof beyond any doubt that the troll is a spoof. No one can seriously believe those statements.

      Delete
    12. We know he's trying to be a 'spoof', but since some of us clocked he's not Scottish, not labour and a racist months ago, precisely who or what is he spoofing Provost?

      And rest assured, he IS a racist. Spitting venom at foreigners, scots and immigrants isn't spoofing anything other than his own complete lack of humanity.

      Nor can anyone seriously claim those kind of posts are a 'joke' or 'ironic' after the murder of Jo Cox.

      Delete
  14. The main thing is that the so-called united kingdom is on course for destruction. For that we have to thank the britnats in England and Wales.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 7:34 PM

      You have lost the plot Dan the man. And Dougie Clark I am grateful you deem me to be only slightly radio rental. Oan ma way back tae Carstairs.

      Delete
    2. You're completely barking.

      Delete
  15. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 7:28 PM

    You Nat sis are in the wilderness. Knickerless stood in Glasgow yesterday and took the salute at the Cenotaph.She then fucked aff tae Embra tae an Emergency Cabinet meeting farce. She did not walk round the Glasgow City Chambers and meet soldiers and veterans who have put their lives on the line for democracy. The Nat sis are not democracy friendly.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Tory Racist ClassJune 26, 2016 at 7:34 PM

      queen Ella ‏@ellaharveyy · 20 minutes ago

      Somehow I feel like Nigel Farage is being deliberately inflammatory given how recent the Jo Cox and Orlando murders were

      Delete
  16. The banks are starting to pull out. I'm starting to think parliament could actually go for the Lammy strategy. If all the parties agree to ignore the vote, what could the electorate do? UKIP probably don't have the resources or electoral base to consolidate the Leave vote.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 8:01 PM

      The leave vote was consolidated they won. The Scottish referendum NO vote was consolidated they won. Seems people want to renage on democracy. It is called fascism.

      Delete
    2. It is called fascismJune 26, 2016 at 8:05 PM

      David Wearing ‏@davidwearing · 2h2 hours ago
      Jo Cox's husband argues that by pandering to the far right, politicians have only strengthened it. He is correct.

      Delete
    3. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 8:29 PM

      The husband of Jo Cox was not elected. However since the death of his wife he seems to pushing his personal agenda. He should state clearly his political views. Is he hard left fascist or democrat!

      Delete
    4. All you know about democracy is how much you hate it.

      Delete
    5. << profile updatedJune 26, 2016 at 8:59 PM

      You are one, maybe two or three, deranged posts away from your IP being flagged. It will be done by those who take a slightly less than sanguine approach to far-right extremists like yourself. A Member of Parliament was murdered. That tends to focus the minds of those tasked with keeping a close eye on far-right extremists.

      So if you want to keep this up and continue spitting your inflammatory hate-speech on here, go right ahead.

      Delete
    6. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 9:04 PM

      Look knob democracy is about the loser respectiing the majority and the winner respecting the loser however Scottish Nat sis respect no one.

      Delete
    7. Personal insults is about the best the troll can manage. He loathes democracy and respects only his own fevered ravings.

      Delete
    8. I should warn you. Your technical expertise is as rudimentary as your attempts to hide your verbal markers. "Nat Si" or "Nat Sis" are as big a flashing red warning sign on the net as "Nazi" or "Nazis."

      Didn't your far-right extremist web friends warn you of that? Do you really think the only tool available to track you down is Google?

      Delete
  17. all you need to know about todayJune 26, 2016 at 7:43 PM

    https://youtu.be/2Gybrn6XLh0

    ReplyDelete
  18. Independence is inevitableJune 26, 2016 at 8:16 PM

    Matthew Campbell ‏@MattCampbel · 6 hours ago

    Jaw, meet floor:

    A ban issued from Downing Street on Brexit preparations - lest it boost the leave campaign - meant Britain's most senior officials were permitted to "think" about a Brexit, but not allowed to write anything down.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 8:43 PM

      You Nat sis are so immature and not to be trusted with real power. Capitalism plods on irrespective off whatever idiot or sensible politicians are in power. And the Joke Nat sis are just collecting their salaries and bumping their gums to justify their existence.



      Delete
    2. Keep screeching, dearie. Your Tory masters have hung you out to dry.

      Delete
    3. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 9:09 PM

      Aye Anon you have lost but do carry on with your sad comments. In a democracy you are entitled.

      Delete
    4. If they hadn't all gone to ground, your Tory overlords would be so proud.

      Delete
    5. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 9:22 PM

      My only mission is for Labour to form the next British Government and get rid of the Tory and Tartan Tory alliance.

      Delete
    6. You aren't Labour.

      Even the most fervent Blairite doesn't get as upset at the criticism of right-wing and far-right politicans as you have over the months you've been allowed to spam your hate-speech on here.

      No Labour supporter would call Jo cox's husband a fascist like you just did.

      Stop embarrassing yourself.

      Delete
    7. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 9:51 PM

      You are a liar. I did not call him a fascist. Just further proof you Nat sis are scum. Try reading what is written.

      Delete
    8. Saying it in the form of a question doesn't make it any less extreme you far-right fucking imbecile.

      You called Jo Cox's Husband a fascist you knuckle-dragging racist loon.

      Expect to be called out for it every time you post on here now.

      Delete
  19. It's striking how shy Scotland's Unionist politicians suddenly are about the independence issue. The likes of Mundell even sound ambivalent about another indyref. The defence of the Union is being left to the misspelt ravings of goons on Twitter and blog comments.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Malcolm Chisholm: "I probably would vote for independence now"

      Delete
    2. Will the last Labour MSP turn off the lightsJune 26, 2016 at 9:42 PM

      They are praying that sounding a wee bit Indy-friendly will save their skin come the Scottish council elections.

      Boy! Are they in for the surprise of their lives. LOL

      They're going to get massacred.

      Sitting on the fence for Indy is about as effective as sitting on the fence for Trident, tory cuts or the EU.

      The other thing they still haven't managed to grasp is that they still have a LONG way to fall. There really is no limit now and they should long, hard look at what happened to the scottish lib dems if they seriously think it can't get any worse.

      Once you are toxic, that's pretty much it.

      Delete
    3. Labour probably won't do that badly (by current standards) in the council elections. In the last decade, they've tended to do better in locals and Euros than in parliamentary elections - probably because the former are seen as a relatively harmless way of protesting against the SNP government.

      Delete
    4. Bye Bye Glasgow Labour CouncilJune 26, 2016 at 11:27 PM

      That was always the lib dems reasoning Keaton. Turns out they were very, very wrong.

      Delete
  20. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 9:01 PM

    Matthew Campbell ‏@MattCampbel · 6 hours ago

    Jaw, meet floor:

    A ban issued from Downing Street on Brexit preparations - lest it boost the leave campaign - meant Britain's most senior officials were permitted to "think" about a Brexit, but not allowed to write anything down.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 9:18 PM

    Her most exalted Queen Liz probably voted tae remain considering her relationship with the hoose of Hapz Coburg Germany.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Prob'ly way too late to suggest this.

    BUT, since James is WAY too principled to block the obvious trolls from the comments, how about we all sign a (virtual) self-denying ordinance - that we just never, ever answer him/them. No engagement whatsoever. Silence. Tumbleweed. I feel a little cruel trying to consign him to his silent, friendless, graceless and lonely little life. But his presence is once again making this otherwise invaluable and essential resource almost unuseable. He clearly does not respect the values of courteous discussion. All I'm saying is, ignore the loud child in the corner and carry on ourselves. What do we think?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 10:05 PM

      Nazi, fascist and Stalinst. Are you Kim Jung Eck? And who are ourselves? Nutter.

      Delete
    2. He is a BNP activistJune 26, 2016 at 10:08 PM

      Already tried that for weeks. Didn't work. He won't just go away if you ignore him. He's a far-right wanker who lives on the internet and he's been banned from everywhere else. This is the only place he can post in which is why he veers wildly from pitiful to outright racist hate-speech.

      Delete
    3. Totally agree. I have tried to get some kind of reasonable response from them and failed. Of course sensible opinions from any side are welcome, but infantile abuse and "Scotland's crap/Scots are crap" are never going to change anyones mind. It only detracts from the interesting articles and replies here. So count me in.

      Delete
    4. James will delete stuff so what he needs is a regular poster he can trust to moderate in his absence since he can't be here 24/7. If you're serious about it and you think you can persuade him send him an e-mail and ask.

      I have plenty of places to post myself but this far-right imbecile clearly does not which is why he will continue to spam this site for years. No matter how embarrassing he makes himself look.

      Delete
    5. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 10:47 PM

      Surely you should want this far right poster as you allege to be embarrassed.
      Better for your cause Nat si and your dumb followers. You need me to keep you going!

      Delete
    6. I don't care how you look son. You clearly have the IQ of a peanut and like all far-right keyboard warriors a strong fart would knock you into next week.

      Yer a knuckle-dragger wee man. You can't hide that any better than you can hide your far-right racism or hide the fact that you clearly aren't Scottish.

      Twats like you are ten a penny on far-right zoomer websites. Chances are you were way too thick even for those imbeciles to take you very seriously.

      Delete
  23. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 10:10 PM

    A ban issued from Downing Street on Brexit preparations - lest it boost the leave campaign - meant Britain's most senior officials were permitted to "think" about a Brexit, but not allowed to write anything down.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 10:11 PM

    Even though SNP are nat si party and yellow Tories with Nicola Stulin and Kim Jung Eck, I am now regretting voting leave. Tony Blair was truly the greatest PM since Churchill and Blair would have voted remain as he loved the EU. I now love the EU.

    I must eat porridge and follow my masters.

    Someone please give me a cookie.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Shouldn't Me Kinnear get a life

      Delete
  25. Daily record to release a survation poll at 10:30

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. For their front page perhaps, depending on the result.

      Delete
  26. Glasgow Working Class 2June 26, 2016 at 10:34 PM

    Knickerless almost crying on the roger melly today. She really wants to usurp democracy in Britain. How on Earth can this woman who I thought was a bit sensible give credence to the EU corrupt gravy train who are milking the working people dry. Get a life Nicola and some common sense. The French want out. If You Nicola have any cells left in your brain then suggest and propose a common trade agreement as it was originally supposed to be. Get rid of the EU Parliament and the Commission.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Far-Right Racist Class 2June 26, 2016 at 10:51 PM

      Yes, but you still called Jo Cox's husband a fascist.

      So, really, if we're being entirely honest, who gives a flying f**k what you think.

      Delete
    2. Glasgow Working Class 2June 27, 2016 at 11:32 AM

      Another lying Nat si, there must be a virus spreading in the Nat si camp. Cox was Labour so why do you care you hate Labour.

      Delete
    3. Yes, but you still called Jo Cox's husband a fascist.

      Delete
  27. "James will delete stuff so what he needs is a regular poster he can trust to moderate in his absence since he can't be here 24/7. If you're serious about it and you think you can persuade him send him an e-mail and ask.James will delete stuff so what he needs is a regular poster he can trust to moderate in his absence since he can't be here 24/7. If you're serious about it and you think you can persuade him send him an e-mail and ask."

    Fair point, but I am suggesting that we act as adults being pestered by an aggressively loud, horribly spoilt child - seem familiar? - and simply not react, ever. At least it would cut down on the number of boring,unrewarding posts we have to navigate through in order to get on withy the interesting stuff.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It wouldn't cut down on them. He'll just reply to every post regardless. You're speaking as if he cares about what people say in replies other than to use them as a jumping off point for more far-right racist abuse. And if there are no posts to reply to he'll just keep posting himself. It HAS been tried Simon. When I've been far too busy to post on this site I've still looked in and nothing has slowed his deranged posting down. He's here to disrupt the site in any way he can and he does because he's obviously been banned everywhere else. You can't reason with a far-right nutcase like him. Nor do any other Indy sites put up with obvious racist far-right trolls. They'd have booted him into touch after a few days.

      Delete
    2. But as a simple matter of arithmetic, if nobody responded,EVER, no matter what the provocation, there would be less vacuous unrewarding rubbish and more substance on this otherwise rewarding forum.

      Delete
    3. You're right, but it's been suggested many times and never happened. Some people seem to be unable to stop themselves replying.

      Delete
    4. Far easier to just ban him or delete his racist anti-Scottish spam.

      You can't ask, nor will you get, every single person who ever posts on here to post on here according to some poster-led group rules. Unless it's moderated fairly it just won't work. Instead you're dictating how everyone else can post on this site to satisfy one deranged far-right twat. Thus giving him 1000 times more attention than mere replies or posts ever could.

      it's not actually rocket science Simon. Blogs and sites have run for years and know how to take care of racist far-right trolls. They ban the shit out of them and rightly so. It's not an accident he's still here. He can't post anywhere else because they'd ban him in a heartbeat.

      It's logistics. Small site, can't hire staff obviously and can't be on it 24/7. Simple as that.

      Delete
    5. It has to be worth a try. Just deprive the attention seeker of attention. Lets stick to discussing the best way forward of our goal of independence.

      Delete
    6. It HAS been tried keaton.

      I've logged on to check James site in the midst of a busy campaign and sometimes whole days will go past and nobody is replying to him. Guess what? He's still here and it hasn't slowed him down a jot.

      Delete
    7. @Anon1: I believe the platform doesn't allow banning of posters who don't use a registered account.

      @Anon2: "Whole days" of being ignored isn't going to be enough to deter someone who doesn't have anything else in his life. If it was sustained over a few weeks I'm sure he'd go away, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. I hope to be proved wrong, though.

      Delete
    8. Asking everyone else who ever posts here to moderate their own posting habits because of one attention starved racist isn't just impractical, it's laughably backwards.

      James can and will delete what he considers abusive posts and has even claimed he'll keep doing it. (though somewhat bafflingly, not to the racist) He should try that as I agree with you entirely, his comments section has been a fucking disaster ever since he allowed that racist free reign all those months ago.

      Like I keep saying, I can't think of any other Indy sites where this racist troll would ever be allowed to post his hate-speech for even a day. Those Indy sites sure as hell aren't any more or less progressive because of that. They just have a far more readable comment section.

      Delete
  28. 54y/46N in survation poll for record

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Good news but how accurate was Survation during the EU Referendum.

      Delete
    2. meh, give it a few more months of this chaos and then we'll see. ;)

      Delete
  29. Marcia - form what I can see survation gave the most accurate final poll for the Indyref in 2014. Got to within +/- 1%. Others can correct me if I've got that wrong

    ReplyDelete
  30. Glasgow Working Class 2June 27, 2016 at 11:42 AM

    When the border controls are set in place where will you lot of fash go. Who will subsidise you. Do not hold out hope the Bundesbank will bail you out. They will do a Greece on you.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You still called Jo Cox's husband a fascist.

      Delete
    2. Glasgow Working Class 2June 27, 2016 at 12:55 PM

      Liar.

      Delete
    3. You still called Jo Cox's husband a fascist.

      Delete