Tuesday, February 23, 2016

Yes campaign's legacy is now secure

Although pro-independence people on social media have appeared to be united in their reaction to the UK government's intransigence over the fiscal framework, I think there's actually been a subtle divide.  The largest group always quite fancied the idea of the Scotland Bill being vetoed and were only too delighted that London seemed to be handing the Scottish Government a good reason for doing that.  A smaller group wanted the extra powers in the Scotland Bill, and considered it a matter of extreme regret that London were sabotaging the whole process and leaving Holyrood with little option but to veto.  I was part of the latter group, and I'm therefore delighted that a fair deal has been belatedly reached.

The Yes campaign was by any standards an extraordinary phenomenon - and yet its only concrete achievement was the Smith package.  (I know some people would say the SNP landslide was also a direct result of the Yes campaign, and that's true, but election results are ephemeral.)  If the new powers had never materialised, there was a danger that we could have ended up looking back at the 2014 referendum as an event that ultimately achieved absolutely nothing - which is pretty much how the sovereignty movement in Quebec look back at their near miss in 1995.

It may well be that the UK government honestly thinks that more devolution is in itself a trap for the SNP - but they're wrong, just as every previous UK government transferring powers as a "brilliant tactic" has been proved wrong.  Consider this, for example - how much harder is it going to be for the BBC to resist the case for a Scottish Six now that income tax rates will be entirely set in Scotland?  How can a one-size-fits-all "national" news programme broadcast from London possibly cope with that degree of asymmetric devolution?

63 comments:

  1. Glasgow Working ClassFebruary 23, 2016 at 5:41 PM

    The Treasury in London blinked and agreed to most of the Scottish Government demands. Well done John Swinney.

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    1. Sorry Glasgow is that you being complimentary about a SNP politician and the moon though full is not blue... Well done!

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  2. looks like greg hands/mundell were pushed off a fiscal cliff today,osborne & cameron made sure it happened

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  3. Totally with you James, it's a big step forward for Scotland anyway, both YES and NO supporters and perhaps brings us closer together, and a big step forward for Indy. The less that's left at Westminster, the less of a step Indy is.

    Next batch of powers please ...

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  4. Worth noting that in the US states are entitled to set their own local income taxes (resulting in significant disparities) and yet there are plenty of national news programmes. There is no particular reason why the right to set different tax rates should trigger different broadcasting treatment when the significant freedom Scotland has enjoyed for many years to determine how revenue should be spent has not done so.

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    1. "Worth noting that in the US states are entitled to set their own local income taxes (resulting in significant disparities) and yet there are plenty of national news programmes."

      Nice try, but you should have read what I said more carefully. The phrase I used was "asymmetric devolution". The US does not have asymmetric devolution, it has symmetric federalism. (Asymmetric devolution would involve the US government setting income tax rates for the whole country apart from Texas, or something like that.)

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    2. Actually the U.S. networks go to Canada and they get their own networks also and have their own Channel and news on "cbc" and they have "ctv" and all the big cities have their own news. Does the N. Have a separate news for Glasgow and Edinburgh etc. Have their own Netflix. They get to decide if they want us or Canada broadcast and cable etc.you know, like citizens of a country of nation etc.

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  5. If you take New Zealand as an example it was granted more powers until it was fully Independent it may take a little longer but I think we will get there.

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  6. Personally, I'm just glad this is over with. The SNP has always been in a bind over it. On the one hand, there was a straightforward desire to have more powers, yet as James mentions, there has also been a large group of people waiting to capitalise on the failure to get a deal to try and make a political argument about the vow being broken.

    Then there's the question of what powers were to be devolved. The SNP knew, as everyone who looks at the relevant numbers knows, that going too far would result in the Scottish budget being cut (yet without the extra benefits in terms of autonomy that go with independence). So they were stuck in a position of advocating more powers but not going as far as making our budget directly dependent on the revenue generated in Scotland.

    It was also advantageous to do this before next month when the latest Scottish expenditure and revenue figures are released as we know they're going to illustrate a fairly sizeable hole in Scottish revenue/spending.

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  7. This will not change a single yes voters beliefs. Europe referendum in the summer could render it irrelevant if England votes leave. Can't wait for those new road signs...lol.

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    1. Glasgow Working Class 2February 23, 2016 at 8:09 PM

      Lots of Scots will vote to leave.

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    2. About 3 in 10 it seems.

      Around 6 in 10 would vote to leave the UK if the UK leaves the EU according to polls.

      You'd better hope the UK votes 'Remain'.

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  8. What do you think will be the immediate impact on support for Independence James??

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    1. Impact of what if I may ask?

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    2. The supposed vow being fulfilled ?

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    3. Oh that? Nothing. We'd already have seen an effect if their was to be one. The general public would having been assuming that some deal on devo nano would eventually be reached since the referendum.

      If you want car (indy or devo max), a front passenger wheel and a headlight is hardly going to satisfy. And that's what Scotland got with extreme reluctance on the part of Westminster.

      If there's one thing we've learned from Holyrood (and elsewhere), a few more powers just increases the wish for even more. 'Kill nationalism stone dead' and all that.

      A little step that makes Scotland that wee bit more independent is all really.

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    4. Hopefully it can be used to change the mindset of more Scots towards Scotland only thinking then!

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  9. What powers will Scotland actually get with this new deal ?

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  10. Out of interest, are Labour still proposing to increase taxes on all bands now that levels for different bands can be varied independently by 2017/18.

    If not, are they back to having no policies?

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  11. But but but, surely surely more devolution will kill Scottish nationalism stone dead?!

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  12. They did good. I'll remember this day as it's ma birthday, so I'm in the happy group of Independenistas. No detriment is a big deal. I truly admire and respect John Swinney, as for Nicola...what a woman! We won this round...we're getting there and as others have said elsewhere, can you imagine if it had been red blue or that other bunch of fannies who had been negotiating on our behalf?

    Aye right!

    K1

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    1. Glasgow Working Class 2February 23, 2016 at 9:30 PM

      They did not win anything. We got what was in the agreement. If they won then who lost?

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    2. Well said, K1. Also, expect English public opinion will become even more anti-Scottish than it is now. It can only help the independence movement in Scotland.

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  13. They lost face. They attempted to 'stitch' us up and you know it. To that extent they lost that which they were attempting to pull off. Is that clear?

    K1

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  14. Glasgow Working Class 2February 23, 2016 at 9:41 PM

    So what was won in financial terms that you allege we were being deprived of. Name the figures!

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    1. Away n git thae leaflets delivered for the Tank Commander. Between Naw n Leave, ye've obviously got no problem daein Tory dirty work.

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  15. Whether you believe Nostradamus or not. I find intriguing that 20 years ago. I read a translation that said Scotland would fall out with England over Europe in the 21st century! He also said Britain would leave Europe. We live in interesting times people.

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    1. Glasgow Working Class 2February 23, 2016 at 9:56 PM

      Aye ye probably believe in the baby jesus.

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    2. A lot ay guid people do. You're no fi Glasgow - tae pit it mildly, religion is a sair spot wi some folk there n you would know that if ye were Weegie.

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  16. Glasgow Working Class 2February 23, 2016 at 9:53 PM

    Whits keepin ye Anon, are ye oan the phone tae Wee Nicola tae conjure up some figures?

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  17. Let me be very clear. I'm not some political geek and I'm not a member of the SNP. I am Glasgow working class. I've watched your shit stirring btl on these threads for a wee while now. That seems to be what you enjoy doing with your life, your choice.

    So go find someone else to fuck with pal. I ain't your huckleberry and you ain't mine.

    K1

    Last comment to you...hope you're clear on that. Now.

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    1. Glasgow Working Class 2February 23, 2016 at 10:23 PM

      You have been clear you say things and cannot back it with facts. You are a Walter Mitty character. And do not insult the working class by attempting to associate yourself with them. Now give the figures we were promised then denied and the figures won. Ok lets hear it Nat si joke of the North.

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    2. Galloway wants you oot wi the leaflets the morn. He wid dae it but there's cameras tae mug for.

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  18. "Consider this, for example - how much harder is it going to be for the BBC to resist the case for a Scottish Six now that income tax rates will be entirely set in Scotland? How can a one-size-fits-all "national" news programme broadcast from London possibly cope with that degree of asymmetric devolution?"

    I am waiting to see how Disreporting Jackie will squeeze that square into a circle as the rabidly pro EU BBC pumps out the SNP BAD projectile vomit and bile even though the SNP is equally pro EU.

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  19. Don't speak to the troll folks. Wasting your time. He's an alcoholic who let's loose when he's not comatose.

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    1. Glasgow Working Class 2February 23, 2016 at 11:11 PM

      This so called troll has you Tartan Tory Nat sis by the short and curlies. Will you now tax the rich get rid of food banks and restore cuts in welfare payments to the poor.
      Your Nat si con game can only last as long as your last lie.
      Once the Jocks have to put their hands in their pockets and put their money where their mouths are is a new ball game and game changer. Let us see how socialist Scotland really is or ever was. Och Nat sis lets hear from you. Oh someone drapped a penny and caused a riot in Sauchiehall Street.

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    2. Aye, that's nice. Away and collect your pat on the heid fi Boris. Back tae doin the Tories dirty work again.

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  20. I wish we’d get independence by the end of the week, but I have to remember the SNP have, for the last few decades, taken a step-by-step approach towards the ultimate goal. This is another step towards independence.

    Also, take well-deserved pleasure in hearing the britnats say once again that this latest piece of devolution will stop independence “stone dead”.

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  21. Exactly Dan. The SNP have a strategy and we just have to keep the faith and be patient. It's painfull living in a dying nation called the UK. But we are near our goal.

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  22. Yes campaign WAS by any standards an extraordinary phenomenon?

    That would imply it is over. It isn't, and it won't be until we are free

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    1. Yes Scotland was disbanded the day after the referendum. That's all I meant.

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    2. Glasgow Working Class 2February 23, 2016 at 11:16 PM

      Ye of little faith James. How could Scotland be disbanded. We are a great nation in a Union that has defeated fascism communism and genocide. You should be proud of Scotland and Union.

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    3. Glasgow Working Class 2February 24, 2016 at 12:04 AM

      Free from what your imagination?

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  23. "Ye of little faith James. How could Scotland be disbanded. We are a great nation in a Union that has defeated fascism communism and genocide. You should be proud of Scotland and Union." Stop it! I laughed so hard, I got a stitch!....defeated fascism, communism and genocide!! You need to get off whatever it is you're on, son....you're making an arse of yourself!

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    1. The british empire [with support from Scottish unionists] was responsible for the oppression and mass murder of millions of innocent people around the world.

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  24. We like this topic.This site has lots of advantage.We found many interesting things from this site. It helps in many ways please keep it up the effective work.- Natural History museum

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  25. Yesterday was the best moment since Indyref. As you said James, MPs & MSPs come and go but today it means we will actually have something to show for it for years to come.

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    1. Glasgow Working Class 2February 24, 2016 at 11:57 AM

      And in the Union and better still out of the corrupt EU maybe for years to come.

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  26. Can you imagine if Scottish labour had been negotiating on our behalf?

    The dopes would have surrendered the 7 billion and then bragged about how wonderfully unionist and fair they were to the rest of the UK. WM would have ran rings round them.

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  27. Yet what would have been the Yes legacy had they been 6 percentage points higher? I'm thinking an impoverished (or soon to be impoverished) country beset by panic and desperately trying to back pedal. The SNP, ironically, would be toast.

    You can thank the NO campaign that we have meaningful autonomy with safety nets included.

    Aldo

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    1. Glasgow Working Class 2February 24, 2016 at 12:05 PM

      Aldo, the Nat sis are fanatics they do not care about the people or prosperity. Better free and in poverty is their motto. Anything to get away from the hated English and mouch fae the Germans.

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    2. Boris wants the leaflets delivered once ye get finished with the Tank Commander's. There's a good little Yoon.

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  28. Glasgow Working Class 2February 24, 2016 at 1:02 PM

    Listen to Vine on iplayer today around 1220. Scottish woman being interviewed about politics and the referendum.

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  29. "Consider this, for example - how much harder is it going to be for the BBC to resist the case for a Scottish Six now that income tax rates will be entirely set in Scotland? How can a one-size-fits-all "national" news programme broadcast from London possibly cope with that degree of asymmetric devolution?"

    Maybe it's just me, but I somehow doubt that the BBC execs will be losing much sleep over it.

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    1. Glasgow Working Class 2February 24, 2016 at 7:56 PM

      I look forward to constant repeats of river city, jimmy shand and the local news fae Clack ma Cuddin. No doubt Kim Yung Eck will have a say in the controlling executives.

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  30. The rest of us will look forward to international news delivered with a Scottish accent. No more parochialism of English Health news,education,cricket and Londons transport system. Or indeed international news filtered through London. Using Gwcs logic every country in the world is parochial except the UK. So brainwashed that he can't believe his own people would be capable of reporting the news. This is how bad it is for some of our citizens.

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  31. I think November unintentionally nailed it with his first sentence: "The rest of us will look forward to international news delivered in a Scottish accent". Apparently, to the nationalists, it is important that information about Chinese earthquakes, Brazilian epidemics and ISIS executions is read out in a Scottish accent rather than a home counties one.

    History tells us that Scottish news programmes are often woeful in their lack of quality - whereas the London news is often more polished and functional.

    Not that it matters anyway. People now have a choice. I have ITV1 and BBC1 England on my Virgin Media package. I'll just watch them - or News 24 - or Sky News - or CNN.

    I'd rather that as some dodgy, ill prepared bulletin with an enforced bias towards nationalism (even if it is read out by Jackie Bird).

    Aldo

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  32. Anon you have taken Scottish Accent literally. It means from a Scottish perspective not in an actual accent. Talk about missing the point!

    If you believe only london can have decent journalists then I can only pity the level of your brainwashing.

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    1. Scotland does produce good journalists. Andrew Neil is unparalleled. The problem is that he, like a lot of talented Scottish people, headed for the 'big lights'. This leaves the second raters behind to produce an inferior 'Scottish' product. Scotland would suffer from talent pool difficulties anyway, being a small country - but the presence of England (and particularly London and the SE) on our doorstep makes matters even worse. I am therefore concerned, legitimately, that any expansion of Scottish news services will simply result in low quality programming and - even worse - may be subject to political control by nationalists.

      But as I said, this isn't a massive problem. It would have been 30 or 50 years ago - but cable and satellite TV, the internet, and even freeview give people the ability to tune out. There are no longer any captive audiences.

      Aldo

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  33. Defeating own argument there. If you only give Scottish journos a remit to cover Scotland. The best people do go south. Bring the news back to Scotland and journos come back and the good ones stay! The High Road To London has had it's day. If you give people opportunities then the ability level rises. Without opportunity we remain a backwater.

    Maybe you want it to remain that way though!

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    1. I think we are a back water and that's just an economic fact of life. As long as you have a free market and free movement of people, the talent will gravitate towards bigger, wealthier areas with greater opportunities. A 'Scottish Six' would just be a comedy of errors and broadcast to one twelfth of the nation. It would not attract good people but, instead, second and third raters. There is plenty of 'Scottish' news and current affairs output at the moment. And, quite frankly, it's garbage.

      Aldo

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